The State of HAB Monitoring – Session One: Data-Driven Approaches to HAB Management

[00:00:00] Max Herzog: We're a little past 2 minutes past the hour, so I think we'll go ahead and get started. thanks everyone so much for joining us here today for the first edition of the HABS Collaborative and Cleveland Water Alliance's series on the state of HAB monitoring. This series is going to be a three part series starting this month and running through October.

[00:00:37] Dealing with a variety of topics around data and harmful algal blooms. this 1st session is going to be diving into the use of data from a management perspective from a variety of. different folks are panelists here today. Our next session will be tackling have data itself and the monitoring technologies around that.

[00:00:58] And the final session will be tackling nutrient monitoring technologies. So, really happy to have you here with us today. And, hope to see you in future sessions as well. it's just something weird. I'll just briefly introduce our panelists here today before we dive into the Q&A, I have a couple of questions for folks here.

[00:01:26] and then we should have time for Q&A from the audience at the end. throughout the process, feel free to drop questions into the Q&A. At the bottom of your screen, it is distinct from the chat and we will go to the Q&A 1st. So, if you drop your questions in the chat, we will hopefully get to them, depending on how many questions we get, but please do try and drop them in the Q&A.

[00:01:51] I guess I should introduce myself. I'm serving as moderator here today. I'm Max, deputy director of programs and partnerships with Cleveland water lines. It's my great pleasure to welcome for esteemed panelists to be part of the conversation today. Liz Cute is senior program manager with Buffalo Niagara Waterkeeper.

[00:02:11] Jen Boheme is CEO of the Great Lakes Observing System, GLOSS. Justin Chaffin is research coordinator at the Ohio State University and Ohio Sea Grant. And Breton Joldersma is Lake Huron coordinator with Michigan Eagle. Thanks so much everyone for being here with us today. And I just want to dive in to talk a little bit about your work and how it pertains to this topic area.

[00:02:39] So I'm wondering if each of you could speak briefly to sort of how you use HABS data in your work. just as a way to kind of introduce us to your work and kind of the broader context of this. This area, and so I think we'll turn 1st to to you, Justin.

[00:02:59] Justin Chaffin: Hey, thanks for having me max. so I, I work out at stone lab, the island campus at OSU.

[00:03:09] We use habs data. Well, we. We first, we collect data from the lake, using grab samples, also deploying buoys and instruments. And we also do lab experiments where we'll collect water that has blooms or, or whatever's in it, that's whatever the phytoplankton assemblage is then. And we'll do lab experience to try to understand why blooms grow, why do they produce toxins.

[00:03:34] And what toxins are they producing and with that information, you know, combining the field data and the lab experiments data, we're hoping to inform models that can be developed to forecast microsystem concentrations, forecast bloom growth and, and also bloom demise. These, these models then can ultimately be used for, water treatment plant operators to get an early warning when.

[00:04:03] Toxic waters coming their way, beach goers, managers, and all sorts of everyone who wants to use Lake Erie.

[00:04:13] Max Herzog: Thanks, just really helpful to dive a little bit into what this looks like in Lake Erie, which I think a lot of folks think about as the epicenter of these issues across the Great Lakes. but I'd love to turn now to you, Breton.

[00:04:25] I know you're engaging in some of this work over in Saginaw Bay and would love to hear a bit about what that looks like. And some of the collaborations you're engaged in there. Thanks

[00:04:34] Bretton Joldersma: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me. I'm glad I can be a part of this panel discussion and share some information about what we're doing in Saginaw Bay.

[00:04:43] I think Saginaw Bay is in a little bit different situation as West Lake Erie Basin and all the research and monitoring that's been going on and that part of our Great Lakes. Saginaw Bay, couple of years ago, probably 5 or 6 years ago, we pulled together a collaborative team to start to look at.

[00:04:59] Nutrient issues within Saginaw Bay for those aren't who aren't familiar with Saginaw Bay. It's the largest watershed in Michigan covers about 8, 700 square miles. it's largely agricultural, and it has a history of. Some justification related issues, nuisance algal growth and the. Deposition of decaying vegetation on the beach of what we refer to as mock.

[00:05:25] so we've had a lot of challenges with that over the past a few years. And our team came together, like I said, about 5 or 6 years ago to look at what kind of nutrient data we had for Saginaw Bay. And so we pulled together a collaborative team, including folks from NOAA, USGS, we are working with, Saginaw Valley State University, CMU, Central Michigan University, local tribes, the Saginaw Chippewa tribe, there in the Saginaw Bay area.

[00:05:54] and also, TNC, and we came together to look at what kind of nutrient data we had. So we could understand what was going on with nutrients in Saginaw Bay. And what we realized is we really didn't have a whole lot of data that was spatially and temporally, accessible to us. and that we realized that there was a big data gap, and we needed to have an understanding of what was happening with nutrients in Saginaw Bay, both locally and internationally.

[00:06:18] For the localized issues that we experienced with the muck on the beach, but also some of the dynamics with the larger lake. If you look at Lake Huron and Saginaw Bay, we do have some nearshore nutrient issues and nutrification issues occurring. But then the offshore zone, we do have declining nutrients in the offshore zone.

[00:06:35] So we see both top down and bottom up pressures. And we do know that Saginaw Bay provides about 25 to 30 percent of the nutrient to the offshore zone. So our team came together to look at, realizing that we didn't have data. We came up with a strategy to better get our understanding on what was going on with nutrient dynamics within the Bay.

[00:06:55] And so over the past 5 years, we pulled together our plan and seeked out funding to implement a large scale monitoring project within Saginaw Bay. fortunately, we're able to get some funding about a year ago, so we're about a year into data collection. But as part of this process, we're able to, increase some nutrient monitoring across 18 different locations within Saginaw Bay where we're collecting weekly grab samples throughout the year.

[00:07:22] So we do a year round sampling on the tributaries. We're doing that water quality sampling, we're pairing that up with USGS gauge stations, so we can get discharge information and eventually calculate loadings into Saginaw Bay. We're also then pairing up the tributary monitoring with work in Saginaw Bay itself.

[00:07:39] So, NOAA is collecting water quality samples in 10 locations within the Bay, both. Saginaw Bay is kind of structured where we have an inner bay and an outer bay. So we have five locations within the inner portions of the bay and five locations on the outer bay. And so we're right now at a point where we are just starting to collect our data.

[00:07:58] We have about a year's worth of data that's starting to come in and we realize that we need to collect a couple more years to start to understand what's happening with nutrients in the bay. So we're at a point in Saginaw Bay where We realized that we had a big data gap and for us to understand what's happening with nutrients and have to then say, we needed to 1st, start to have a robust data set to help us.

[00:08:22] understand what was happening with nutrients and how that related to habs and say, and I'll be. And we're just kind of at that early stages of starting to collect that data. We do have other challenges that I think I'll discuss in a little bit for some of the other questions, but we're excited to be at this point where we're collecting data.

[00:08:40] I think we looked to some of the research and monitoring and Western Lake Erie Basin are kind of jealous of the long data sets that are there to help inform management and address some of the HABs issues in Western Lake Erie Basin. We're trying to set up something similar and in Saginaw Bay. It is, you know, one of the top 3.

[00:08:58] Largest agricultural watersheds and the Great Lakes. I think the other 2 are Maumee and the Fox and the Saginaw. So we feel like this is a big kind of gap when we need to start to collect the data to inform future management decisions.

[00:09:11] Max Herzog: Absolutely, and it sounds like you're laying a really solid foundation with the depth and breadth of collaborations across indigenous groups, federal groups, state groups, local groups. 

[00:09:24] that's really exciting to hear in that combination of the nutrient have monitoring as well, really plays with that intersection. I'm wondering now, if we could shift, you know, over to another geography in the Eastern. You know, based on of Lake Erie, as well as the Niagara River and dive in with you, Liz, a little more deeply into what engaging with communities and this kind of work can look like kind of that boots on the ground approach.

[00:09:50] Liz Cute: Absolutely yeah, thanks for inviting us into this panel. Excited to be here. Buffalo Niagara Waterkeeper, we're a nonprofit in Western New York, right? And we're working to protect and restore our water and surrounding ecosystems for current and future generations and harmful algal bloom monitoring has really Ramped up the last few years, but almost for a decade, we've been Observing and making reports of smaller tributaries, smaller waterways, inland lakes in our region to the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation.

[00:10:30] they have a statewide mapping reporting system that we're feeding into and encouraging our volunteers, the public to contribute that data as well. And we also. Have been coordinating with some local partners and universities to assist our staff with some identification of the algae locally. what are we seeing in different waterways?

[00:10:54] We've been noticing a difference depending on which Creek, which stream and all this information that we're we've been gathering and gathering more and more every year. Is really been so useful for educational purposes to the public to landowners to municipal leaders through phone calls, emails, social media posts that really take off because folks are concerned about safety for themselves and their pets and their children.

[00:11:23] And. We've been able to really start some really important local conversations about water safety, future research and sampling needs and, you know, improvements that some of these waterways really need and queuing up potential projects down the line. And it's just been really exciting to see, you know.

[00:11:45] Real concern, and hopefully that's a good motivation for, for the future. And then we can start to move into solutions. Western New York is unique in terms of we're on the eastern basin of Lake Erie. We haven't seen that lake wide bloom over here yet. So we're really focusing in on those inland creeks, could be potential contributors to nutrients to the lake as a whole.

[00:12:11] And hopefully we don't have to. worry about a lake bloom. That's our hope, but we're just, yeah, focusing more inland right now.

[00:12:22] Max Herzog: Absolutely, and I think hearing that perspective is incredibly important because obviously these big. You know, impactful, see them from space blooms really, you know, make the headlines, but I think how.

[00:12:34] The majority of people that experience harmful algal blooms, it is in that, like, inland lake. You know, stream and create context and so thinking about the work from that perspective is really helpful.   You know, Jen, we've heard here from our panelists so far about data collected by local watershed groups, research institution.

[00:12:54] State and federal agencies, indigenous communities and agencies are a whole bunch of different stakeholders, just in this in this group, you know, that are pulling together data from a variety of sources here. And I know gloss inhabits this really interesting space at the Great Lakes level of integrating and serving up a lot of those data.

[00:13:12] I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to. You know, that role, and particularly how habs and nutrient data. Perhaps relevant data, you know, plays into that for you.

[00:13:24] Jennifer Boehme: Sure. Happy to. Thanks. Thanks for having me. so,   The Great Lakes observing system is a freshwater regional association within the umbrella of the integrated ocean observing system. 

[00:13:38] We're the only freshwater region. And so we, we really tend to focus in on the particularities that are that are unique to the Great Lakes region. We're a nonprofit and we provide end to end data services to support science policy management and industry in both the United States and Canada. So, we have a broad scope across all 5 great lakes are our mission is to equip all observers, including the public with high quality lake information, whether they're venturing out on a boat or confronting harmful algal bloom impacts in their own communities.

[00:14:15] We do this by collecting information from a variety of platforms, assets and sensors, in particular, through funding and support of the National Harmful Algal Bloom Observing Network. So we are part of the national effort that includes the Salty Coast who also have their own harmful algal bloom issues.

[00:14:34] Our particular monitoring approach includes Western Lake area as well as Green Bay and Lake Michigan and we even have sites in Lake Superior. That's the fastest warming lake in the region, and it is starting to see the follow on impacts from increased nutrient runoff and the harmful algal blooms that could potentially result from that runoff.

[00:14:52] If you're interested in real time observing data, we offer the IU certified access point via seagull at seagull.gloss.org. And this last year, we have focused on improving the bed. Breadth of habs data that's accessible right now on seagull as well as the visualization of that data. So if you go to seagull, you'll get an example of of a recent partnership that we had with the Cooperative Institute of Great Lakes research.

[00:15:21] To develop new features that allow us to ingest, manage and visualize real time data focused on the biomolecules of the toxins themselves. So, that increases our ability to share the really critical information related to toxin production of different lakes. These are still in the research phases. We don't have real time toxin information yet.

[00:15:47] all of our toxin data is based on previous research events, but it is there and available for study and visualization. And it includes biomolecules, like DNA, RNA, proteins and metabolites. it allows you to visualize the molecules as well as the environmental parameters, like temperature,  that are related to the water close by and and the relative abundance of plankton.

[00:16:14] So we're trying to. bring together these different streams of data in a way that's useful, for, for those who are trying to crack that nut of, how do, how do we get at that in real time information, overall on toxins? And so that's, that's something that we've been spending a lot of time on and are very interested to talk with others about approaches that they're taking to get at some of these challenges.

[00:16:43] Max Herzog: Thanks so much, Jen. That's really interesting to learn about, you know, you know, having worked with gloss and even familiar with gloss in the past. I'm certainly, you know, think of y'all as this real time data platform. And so hearing about these other data sources that you're working with and working to integrate and working to get towards real time is really exciting to hear about.

[00:17:02] You know, in general, from our panelists, we've heard, I think, a lot of different types of data that are being collected through different types of organizations that are targeting different end users for impact. And so I'm wondering if we can turn now to some of the challenges that limit the potential that impact right now.

[00:17:21] you know, what are the kind of current data gaps, implementation barriers, technical hurdles? That are really impeding the scope or progress of data driven have management at this point in time. And I think, you know, Jen, you really teed us up well to dive in on that  microstystemtopic. And I think, you know, Justin, you have some thoughts on this.

[00:17:43] So perhaps we can turn to you to talk about some of the barriers and gaps in that area.

[00:17:48] Justin Chaffin: Yeah, as Jen mentioned, the main toxins that we're concerned about in Lake Erie are microsystems. However, The, there's the only way to quantify the microsystems of our sample is to have a grab sample, and then at best you can turn it around and 24 to 48 hours because you have to freeze saw, freeze saw the sample, and then the ELIZA method, which is the current method used by most, most agencies, the data used by most agency takes, takes additional Four to five hours.

[00:18:25] So, you know, if you're if you want to know what the  microsystem concentration is at beach or intake, wherever you want, you know, you're not getting that data for a day or so down the road. And then, if we're, you know, we're looking into developing forecast models, well, in order to do a forecast model, we have to know what the concentrations are.

[00:18:51] Now, right, but that best, you know, we're starting our forecast 2 days late. Right? so getting, there's some technology that we've had looked at. That hope to. Reduce that time. the results have been mostly mixed, so not too reliable. yet. but yeah, the biggest thing is, developing technologies that can, quantify micro systems.

[00:19:29] And not just micro system, but also other toxins for other bodies of water or other bloom species. but if we can really. Minimize that time between sample collection to data that will help our models, but also help help human health.,

[00:19:50] Max Herzog: Yeah, thanks. I think that's really helpful to hear. And just thinking about, you know, toxin analysis is 1 of those key frontiers for innovation here.

[00:19:58] That's always of interest to us at Cleveland water lines, really focusing in on trying to accelerate the development of those new technologies and their path to market. I think 1 thing that I've only learned, you know, engaging in this work with folks like y'all is that toxicity of these blooms does not necessarily correlate to.

[00:20:16] Their presence or visibility and so, you know, a lot of folks tend to think of if there's a bloom that I can see, that's the problem. But this toxin element is really like an underlying, you know, concern often invisible. And also

[00:20:28] Justin Chaffin: I want to quickly add is that, microcystic concentration does not necessarily mean toxicity because there's a bunch of different congeners.

[00:20:37] A micro systems that can have a wide range of toxicity. So, you know, that's another issue is which form of micro systems are out there.

[00:20:47] Max Herzog: Right? So a lot of layers to peel back to really get to that. Potential ecological and human health impact. in terms of direct measurements and predictions. I'm wondering if we can turn from sort of looking at the open lake.

[00:21:03] and these large scale blooms, their risks on beaches and. And drinking water intakes to more of that, you know, inland perspective, looking at the watershed and Liz, if you could speak a little bit about what it's like to be a watershed group, trying to address these issues and some of the challenges that you run into.

[00:21:21] Liz Cute: Yeah, definitely. so, you know, not like unlike other groups, right? Capacity and funding for this work is always an ongoing struggle and. You know, that's for both our organization. We work within a very large watershed. So responding to every bloom is difficult, even though we try our best and the state agency, the D. C. as well.

[00:21:48] Right. They have a, it's a large state. They cannot make it out to every bloom. So locally we are, you know, the experts, For for our region, and we do a lot of public engagement and education and sampling, but that right. It's limited and we've been working hard to. You know, collect as much data as we can and incorporate that into future funding asks and things like that. 

[00:22:21] And. We also have some other challenges specific to a few different waterways. we have a creek in our watershed that's had an annual euglena bloom for five years or more for the duration of the summer and early fall. And while it's not cyanobacteria, It looks just like it with your bare eye. So folks are just used to it and they kayak through it and they've kind of almost become numb to it.

[00:22:56] They just expect it. So I have concerns of like, oh, they're used to that. They go to another waterway that looks like it. Like the bloom they've experienced, but it's a different species that might have toxins and what the impact of that will be. So that's like a small kind of sub case that we have here, but very interesting.

[00:23:18] And that's why we're focusing on just trying to figure out what bloom is. Is what species locally and kind of strategies, that we can form and what other groups can we bring in, you know, forming a technical advisory committee and just, yeah, continuing to cue out the data gaps and the needs that we have.

[00:23:42] There's, there's no, it's not a short list, unfortunately, but it's really interesting work and folks are. Definitely tuned into it now more than ever, I think, as we just see more and more blooms every, every year, and they're extending longer into the fall, starting earlier in the spring. So, yeah, definitely challenges, but we're encouraged by, you know, the public's response and interest in the issue and solutions.

[00:24:13] Max Herzog: Yeah, thanks, Liz. That's really helpful. I obviously, you know, calling out that capacity challenge is something that will translate across a couple of different projects and areas of work. I think Brett will speak to that more in a moment as well. But I think you also hit on something interesting, which is even though, you know, both Niagara water keepers capacity is limited.

[00:24:33] You are still adding capacity that the state agency. Wouldn't be able to address by itself and both in terms of monitoring and in terms of that community outreach, which obviously it's always an uphill battle. We can never collect as much data or talk to as many people as we want to. But I think it speaks to some of the value of local watershed organizations, volunteer water quality monitoring that you can have these conversations and build out those networks as well.

[00:24:58] You know, as I sort of alluded to, Breton, I know you have some thoughts about kind of sustainable operations of these networks and how you can really build out that funding base, coming from the perspective of really like a multi agency. Multi institution collaboration, sort of what is that looking like for you?

[00:25:16] Bretton Joldersma: Yeah, for sure. you know, we starting off when we 1st identified the fact that we had a large data gap and that we recognize the need to build that that monitoring need. we definitely work hard to put together partners and identified. You know, how does our data, how would our data support multiple different programs across the federal and state and local agencies and fill the needs of multiple different stakeholders?

[00:25:45] you know, our work will hopefully be used and will eventually be used to help inform some of the targets set under the Great Lakes water quality agreement. So, from the perspective of annex 4, the Great Lakes water quality agreement. We had targets that were carried over from the previous agreement.

[00:26:03] So, dating back from, I think they are originally sets our targets that we're working on under right now. We're set back in the early 80s before zebra mussels and came into the system. So we have questions right up front, like, is the current targets that are in the. 2012 Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, even appropriate with the fact that the system has changed so much with the introductions of zebra mussel and focal muscles.

[00:26:25] So when we started framing it, we set up our project to hopefully address that question. But this also under the, the water quality agreement, the AOC, the Saginaw Bay and River is an area of concern. the unification beneficial use is considered impaired. And so. We didn't really have much traction as a state federal agencies on how to move forward with addressing the beneficial use impairment within the AOC.

[00:26:53] in addition, we are tying our project to other state priorities. about two years ago, the state did, list portions of interstate and update as. requiring the development of a total maximum daily load. So we need data to help inform the development of, that program. And we also know that, you know, there's a lot of work up in the watershed to install agricultural BMPs and to work with producers to address some of their nutrient issues.

[00:27:25] and so we're really setting our project up to be a source of information for multiple people to use. and in doing so, are the same of a consortium has developed a, a project, a dashboard, which is available. I did post it on in the chat. But I think that the link only goes to the panel. So I don't know if Max or if Connor can copy that link to our dashboard and get it out there.

[00:27:57] So everyone can see it. But our data will hopefully also be available to do cross basin analysis and comparisons to see what's happening within Western Lake Erie Basin, looking at that data. I look at some of the unique differences between what's happening in West Vicaria Basin, maybe Saginaw Bay, and hopefully having that data available will be beneficial to help gain some insights on what really triggers the toxic events.

[00:28:21] In Saginaw Bay, we do have some toxic events. We do get some microcystin that shows up. But it's not at the scale and level that we see in Western Lake Erie Basin. And so I think having this, you know, different data sets that people can access and use to, to evaluate the, you know, what's happening with HABs could be very beneficial.

[00:28:39] We are to, you know, the challenge of funding is real. we identified the data gap and it took us. 5 to 6 years to actually get some funding to start monitoring and so right now we're operating under about. I think we have about three to four years worth of funding available for this first phase.

[00:28:58] but we are already, you know, even though we're one year in, we're starting to transition and think about how can we, how can we secure long term funding? How do we adaptively manage our, our monitoring sites? We set up our program to hit a bunch of watersheds, or a bunch of tributaries that really haven't been monitored in the past.

[00:29:18] So, We could find out that there may not be major contributors. We may be able to scale back or change our approach to where we monitor. But the 1st step was, we just need a broad kind of robust monitoring effort to see what's going on. And then. you know, adaptively manage our monitoring efforts based on funding needs based on what we're learning from the trims and what that means for loading into Saginaw Bay.

[00:29:42] And so we are going to be, you know, over the years, managing our sites and adapting to what we learned from, you know, these 1st, couple of years of data collection. we have, you know, really aligned our work to with, Saginaw Valley State University. They've been a great partner and they really do do the tributary of water quality monitoring.

[00:30:03] SPSU is also an exciting point right now too, where they have a Signal Bay Environmental Science Institute. They are in the process, they just secured funding this past year or so to actually develop a new facility that's going to be right on. The Saginaw River right near the Bay, where they're going to have a kind of a research education facility that's really targeted on environmental issues related to Saginaw Bay.

[00:30:28] So it can be an opportunity for us to engage with the public and educate them, but also, you know, help us, kind of center some research around some of the issues facing Saginaw Bay. So we're trying to partner with a broad suite of people and agencies and, you know, think about, you know, Different ways we can, find some, long term funding opportunities as well.

[00:30:52] And so we're going through that process right now. And I think over the next 2 to 3 years, we'll try to come up with some, some options for us to, to pursue. I know we've talked about, you know, the possibility of looking at. Natural actuary research reserve systems is an opportunity to to get say, and I'll be identified within that reserve system.

[00:31:11] but yeah, that's 1 idea out of many that we're looking at for, for trying to set up a longer term.

[00:31:18] Max Herzog: Yeah, that's really helpful. Bretton. Thank you for for walking us through that. It's. Exciting to see, you know, from my perspective, the level of intentionality and breath you're bringing to kind of identifying those target end users and end uses of the data to kind of build that funding relationship, you know, at a variety of scales, thinking about, you know, everything from the lamps to the community and use.

[00:31:43] and really trying to make the connections there strong so that the there's funding to support what people see as valuable. I love to that you explored, you know, you're exploring the narrow system. I think we're really fortunate in the Lake Erie Basin to benefit from old woman Creek. National and research reserve, they've been a huge resource to us.

[00:32:05] And, you know, in general, for us, I believe in water lines, building out sort of our sensor networks through the smart, like, your watershed and volunteer water quality monitor through the volunteer science network. We found that, like, the way that each individual sensor almost become sustainable as if.

[00:32:21] There is a drinking water treatment plant, or a watershed manager that is getting value from that data specifically. And then that lets you sort of get those assets out there, get that data collected. you know, whether it's a sensor or a volunteer,   And then be able to integrate it together and look at some of those bigger pictures and make adaptive management decisions.

[00:32:43] So that's really cool to hear sort of all the different angles you're exploring there. And I think that starts to really push towards, you know, what is our strategy moving forward as the Great Lakes, you know, really to build out the systems that we need to address some of these barriers. And so, as, you know, my last question to you all, before we open it up to, you know, our audience here today, I'm wondering if we can turn to sort of what the future of data driven have management looks like from your perspective, you know, what are the actions that are being taken to address some of these challenges that you laid out?

[00:33:17] so much. And what is the ultimate impact you'd like to see from these systems and actions if we can, you know, reach that future where we, you know, envision the impact being as as maximized and broad as possible. I think, Justin, I'd love to turn to you 1st to speak a little more from that kind of research, and Western Lake Erie Basin perspective.

[00:33:43] Justin Chaffin: Or to try to answer your last question 1st, I hope. In the future, these blooms are not as big, so we're just. You know, at a baseline level to make sure they're not there. But, in the meantime, when, while we're still having blooms until, reduced phosphorus and nitrogen, loads, actually happen, we need to be able to, incorporate new tools, both from like the remote sensing side, all the way down to the much better scale.

[00:34:15] Oh, you know, we really need a real time data, toxins that are present. Conners are present. understanding are, are there, are there omic data we could look at that are indicated of Blooms coming, toxins being produced, you know, even before we can see the bloom, you know, are, are there markers out there that we could develop assays, quantifying real time?

[00:34:46] several sites, many sites throughout the lake, you know, get, real-time data, so we can develop. Toxin forecasts. I think, you know, the ultimate is, getting real time data, reliable, real time data, both at the large lake scale and then also down at the molecular scale, incorporating cross, you know, the gradients of scales, spatial gradients and temporal gradients.

[00:35:15] So to really help understand the system, then also. forecast balloons and toxins. 

[00:35:23] Max Herzog: Absolutely. A lot of, you know, frontiers for the technology and the science to push on, but some really incredible impacts that we'd see if we can, if we can get there. you know, hearing a bit about, you know, what, what could the new streams of real time data look like and how can that drive prediction and action?

[00:35:43] I'm wondering if we, you know, another big part of that is sort of the long term data, the trend analysis, the historical elements and how that can help us. You know, predict future impacts. I'm wondering Breton if you could speak a little bit to that, you know, coming from this perspective of really trying to stand up a long term monitoring network.

[00:36:02] Bretton Joldersma: Yeah, you know, I think, like you mentioned, our goal is to have that long term data set. We realize that there's a lot of value and having that, for us to understand what's happening with the system. You know, I think, as we continue to face the challenges of climate change, and we see the impacts happening.

[00:36:21] Being able to keep our finger on what's happening and making sure that we have good spatial and temporal distribution of data come in on Saginaw Bay will be critical for us to understand different impacts of the system, for us to understand how our management activities are. Are hopefully improving what's happening within the system and if it's not, it gives us the opportunity to adapt and manage appropriately.

[00:36:46] you know, as I mentioned, I think, in the previous question as well, some of the challenges challenges that we do have, is, you know, think about long term funding and how that fits into our long term vision. and I think there is a role for for new technologies to come in. I know, like, even right now with our work to capture discharge information.

[00:37:08] For us to develop our reference curves for our different trips, you know, takes about 3 years worth of data. And so while we're going through this process, it could be not a good opportunity to test our new technology where we compare new sensors and new technology with. That the old trusted, methods of, you know, they're determining your reference curves and collecting data.

[00:37:29] And so that's something that we haven't think about as a team that could help us adaptively manage the project with new technologies. Well, we do have some challenging trips within our system where we do experience backflow. And so that is a challenge. You can't just, you know, expect that the flows are always going to be moving 1 directions.

[00:37:47] We do have backflows that occur with different way, for instance, events. and so it makes it a challenge, but I do think, you know, while we have a robust system and monitoring network set up, it's a good opportunity to. To explore opportunities with new technologies, and can we deploy things alongside the old techniques to get an understanding if there's correlations between what the new technology could provide versus what our old techniques are doing.

[00:38:13] So, I think, find a way to incorporate new technologies will be very important for us. and. Yeah, I think that that's kind of I think those next phases is how do we incorporate new technology into our system? And the other thing, too, is making sure that data is available for other people to access and use for, for different research questions that different researchers might have.

[00:38:36] So our data is on the, the, our dashboard and it is, downloadable. right now we just have the tributary data available on our dashboard. and over the next few months, we hope to be able to incorporate NOAA's Bay data to that as well. So som e data will be there for researchers to be able to download into, to look at, into, to use, to address specific research questions that they may have.

[00:38:59] Max Herzog: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that really advances this narrative of, you know, the need for technological innovation, incorporation of new innovative techniques into monitoring programs, as well as, I think, you know, cementing some of the value of tried and true methods and how there's sort of this, you know, synergy hopefully between long term, very reliable data sets and the piloting and scaling up of new technologies.

[00:39:25] I think the last piece you touched on really moves greatly or smoothly to, you know, the next piece, which is this idea of once the data is being collected, those trends are established. New technologies are deployed. How is it exposed to other folks? Not just for the end use of the deployer, but in a way that it's findable, accessible.

[00:39:47] Interoperable with other data systems and,   You know, reusable for other uses, and I think that dovetails really nicely into sort of from how I perceive the role of gloss and some of these conversations. So I'm wondering, Jen, if you could speak a little bit to, you know, the future of data aggregation, integration, serving that up in data driven have management.

[00:40:09] Jennifer Boehme: Sure, happy to, I just start off by saying data sharing is fundamental to the gloss identity and mission and also to develop partnerships and cultivate relationships with new communities and support the improved tabs and observing and data related technologies as they develop in the, in the region.

[00:40:28] we're, we're. At present, moving forward, with continued support for both our observations network and also our data sharing approaches. So communities have the opportunity to share a house out for information quickly with each other, even down to individual person to person sharing. On the outside, we've supported grab sampling events in Lake Erie to identify bloom composition and toxin analysis in the future.

[00:40:55] We would aim to evolve that approach beyond Lake Erie to other lakes and provide the lessons learned in Lake Erie on a broader scale. we'd like to spend time on sample collection design and data sharing questions as part of that effort, making sure that this data has a purpose for public users. 70 percent of our seagull users are actually public users and only 30 percent of them are data managers and and researchers.

[00:41:21] So it's something that we think is critical for expanding the reach of this data. We'd also, like to use this effort to leverage, satellite validation potential for the region and, how model algorithms might be improved as a result of that. Those efforts, on the data side, I think,   Gloss's vision for growth in that area includes bringing our data, including the Seagull platform to new communities of users, including underserved communities.

[00:41:51] That's going to require new data pipelines with other regions, new data structures, new data sets, and potentially data warehouses to encompass and distill things into usable pieces for whatever community is looking to engage with HABS data. We'd be also really interested in,   Exploring new avenues for data accessibility, so mobile applications, web applications, API, those sorts of things.

[00:42:18] How can we improve our discovery tools and search functions? Artificial intelligence is opening up a big, wide door and we're hoping to be able to Walk through that,  sooner rather than later.  and, you know, as I said before, social sharing of data, how can we externally communicate these findings, especially with rapid, you know, rapid evolution of a haves data.

[00:42:40] If there's an active event, can we get to a point where people are able to talk to each other in real time? And it's not just the researchers and the managers, but also individuals who want to share this information within their own community. 1 final thing to note, and and this goes back to items that have been mentioned previously previously about engaging with indigenous communities.

[00:43:02] Gloss has supported developing an indigenous Great Lakes network to talk about data sharing and data sovereignty issues. And so we are committed to continue work with tribes and 1st Nations on new data entry points that remove barriers to sharing of tribal and 1st Nations data, but also preserve. The data, integrity, privacy, and the cultural sensitivities that go along with with those type of activities.

[00:43:28] So, if there's any other questions, we're happy to answer.

[00:43:33] Max Herzog: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's that's where we're getting to now in the course of this panel really appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my questions, but. really want to turn it over now to you all the audience to to bring your questions for our panelists is a lot of expertise in the room here from a lot of different perspectives.

[00:43:53] and so please do drop your questions in the Q&A, so that we can respond to them. I see that we do have 1 question already in the chat, which is from John asking for recommendations for remote sensing platforms for habs and chlorophyll monitoring. I don't know if folks. Have, tools in mind regarding this, but I will say, John, before we dive in that this is a great topic to, bring to also our next, panel that will be taking place in September on, I believe the 19th.

[00:44:35] as part of this series, we'll be diving deeper into, innovative habs monitoring technologies. but in the meantime, panelists, are you at all looking at, or playing around with, or implementing any remote sensing platforms that interact with. With habs and chlorophyll

[00:44:57] Jennifer Boehme: off the top of my head, I would point folks who aren't already aware to the, the Noah coastal science website for their Lake Erie, harmful algal bloom forecast, which includes, basin wide projections that are in part based on on,  

[00:45:13] That type of data, I'm going to drop that link in the chat. That's that's an ongoing. That's the ongoing work that Noah has supported in the region. And so I, I'd encourage folks to look a, as a starting point. If they're not already interacting with that space.

[00:45:31] Max Herzog: Thanks, Jen.

[00:45:35] Our next question is from an anonymous attendee, asking, do we have data on HABs invasive species in various states? And how do we monitor these species? Interesting question. My understanding, at least, is that a lot of our HABs are native. They're just not properly ecologically regulated, but I'm wondering if.

[00:45:59] You know, you all have much more knowledge than me. if you have perspective on this question of invasive, hab species.

[00:46:10] Justin Chaffin: Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll answer that. most of the sound bacteria blooms that we have in our region are native. Slendospermopsis is not, is a non native one. and then there's some debate whether if Lingvia on the bottom is also native or non native. and also just to clarify both those. Generally, I mentioned having new names as of this past couple of years, but, Slipnose promopsis and potentially lingvia are non native ones.

[00:46:43] Max Herzog: And do those non native species require additional consideration, or they monitored in. A different way, or, you know, bring different kinds of concerns versus native have species.

[00:46:55] Justin Chaffin: They would, I mean, that's a really big question. You could ask, but they. The, the slendospermapsis does produce different types of toxins.

[00:47:08] So if you see the bloom there, it may not be producing microcystins. It might be producing saxitoxins. And then, the lingvia, on the bottom, still, unclear of what toxins it does produce. It does produce some things, but. they might be a lower tax toxicity version, but, they also can produce, some skin,irritation things.

[00:47:35] but then they, if they rip up, they can also clog filters of intake. So it's a whole different conversation to monitoring what blooms that occur in the water column versus blooms on the bottom. blooms on the bottom are. A different can of worms, Justin.

[00:48:00] Max Herzog: We have a question here from James asking if there's a quick, easy and accurate method. To measure have biomass, we need to ground truth or have models in the Great Lakes and other aquatic ecosystems, or we need this. To ground truth again, James would definitely encourage you to attend. Our session next month on other I was monitoring technologies, but would love to turn to the panel.

[00:48:25] If you have any insights on. Quick, easy and accurate methods to measure have biomass.

[00:48:31] Justin Chaffin: I would add the floor probe is as good. I'm an advocate of the floor. It'll give you. Chlorophyll a associated with cyanobacteria and other groups of algae. But it can, there can be some differences amongst.

[00:48:51] Especially at the lower ranges, it might get some misinterpretation, but if you're comparing relatively clear water to super green water, and in between the floor does a good job at that.

[00:49:06] Max Herzog: Thanks, Justin. Other questions for the audience, feel free to drop them here in the chat questions about monitoring questions about use of data, building partnerships, managing data, serving it up to end users. Thanks.

[00:49:26] As we're waiting to see if, you know, other audience questions come in, I do have a question that I can bring to panelists who want to answer. I'm curious if in your experience, you know, working with these data and taking management actions, interacting with end users. If you've seen, you know, A win that really sank in, you know, with you of, like, wow, what we're doing is really having impact.

[00:49:49] You know, this data that we collected informed and action. That's really helping people helping the ecosystem. Helping the economy, you know, whatever it may be, or even if it's just, you know, it's helping us understand. the dynamics of these issues in a new kind of an exciting way would love to just sort of hear those success stories.

[00:50:10] If anyone. Has one that comes to mind.

[00:50:18] Justin Chaffin: I would say a success story is the heightened awareness of blooms. So that's not specific to any. Buddy on this panel, but it's the community of folks, researchers, academics, agencies, some private groups, you know, all coming together to. Leverage our efforts and coordinate.

[00:50:45] Bretton Joldersma: Yeah, I guess I was going to add, you know, I think a success that we're seeing so far with our signal Bay monitoring consortium is 1 is the.

[00:50:54] Developing of those relationships and the partnership across the federal, state, local, tribal entities, and all trying to work together the same direction. So, you know, each group has their own expertise and they may have their in particular in use. you know, we're working with. Michigan Department of Ag and Rural Development, they're part of our team.

[00:51:13] So, you know, as they engage with, the different conservation districts and work with installing and implementing BMPs, they have their voice being heard. And so that collaboration is something that we, I think, already see as a success so far. I think some of our other successes are going to come down the road a little bit.

[00:51:32] You know, once we have a few years worth of data, we will be going through a similar process, which was done for Western Curie Basin, where we develop kind of response curves and do a full kind of analysis of different endpoints to try to understand what kind of targets we should have for. For once we have those targets that can help us track implementation, see how we're making progress towards those goals and to re evaluate our activities.

[00:52:00] So some of our successes are going to come down the road. Once we actually get a chance to. Assess the quality agreement targets, and, you know, if need be update those targets and that will. Hopefully give us a framework to start to understand where we're at with trying to address issues in Saginaw Bay and help us kind of move forward in a collaborative process.

[00:52:24] What are kind of angles potentially are, and we can start to work together as a collaborative, take a little group to address those issues.

[00:52:33] Max Herzog: Absolutely, I mean, Bretton, I think in my mind, your, your comments and points dovetail with. What Justin's saying, which is that, you know, some of our successes really are setting the stage for long term success and those kinds of partnerships and broader public awareness.

[00:52:50] Are what's required to really make these monitoring and action network sustainable. And so. I think, you know, we can certainly count those as wins, even if there are still blooms, you know, in our lakes and streams. Any other thoughts folks want to share on this topic or otherwise, or this question or otherwise.

[00:53:12] Okay. Excellent. well, we don't have any other audience questions at this point. So I'd love to just take this opportunity to thank again, our panelists for, for taking the time to be here, share your stories, share your work and for the great work that you're doing in this area. Really encourage all of our attendees to.

[00:53:31] You know, seek out more information about our panelists will be sharing. sort of a recap of this as well as the recording, if you want to learn more or potentially collaborate with with them and their organizations, also want to plug 1 more time. But this is an ongoing series. Our next session will be on September 19th, focused on the technology side of things, for have monitoring.

[00:53:54] And then our last session in this partnership between Cleveland water lines and, Great Lakes commissions, Great Lakes habs collaborative will be on October 17th, which will be focused on the technology side again, but from the perspective of nutrient monitoring. so with that, I'll thank, you know, our attendees as well for taking the time today.

[00:54:13] Thank you to the panelists and I hope you'll have a great rest of your day. Great rest of your week.

‍